Pursuing the strategic further development of research in the area of policy making and practice and creating international networks

BIBB has had a new Head of Research in place since 1 September. Prof. Dr. HUBERT ERTL, Associate Professor of Higher Education in the Department of Education at University of Oxford, is making the move to Bonn to provide new ideas on how research at BIBB can be developed further. Just before he took up his new position, BWP had the opportunity to conduct a brief interview.

BWP Mr. Ertl, I’m very pleased to meet you. Are you curious about what awaits you at BIBB?

ERTL Yes, I’m curious about the tasks that face me at BIBB and I’m looking forward to working with my new colleagues. Something which particularly attracts me is the research BIBB conducts in the reference area of policy making and practice. In its capacity as a centre of excellence for VET research and further development, BIBB offers special opportunities to help shape the research landscape. My future work at BIBB will align research in a more strategic direction.

BWP What contacts have you had in the past with the work carried out at BIBB?

ERTL I have had various points of contact, although these have tended to be indirect. Whilst I was working at the Universities of Munich and Paderborn, I was involved in vocational education and training pilot projects. Over the course of these, I constantly made reference to the work done by BIBB. A further point of contact arose in 2012/2013 within the scope of a Cedefop project which was looking at the attractiveness of initial vocational training in European comparative terms. As part of this research project, I drew up a case study relating to Germany and of course referred to BIBB data.

BWP Over the past 13 years, you have observed German VET from abroad. What struck you in particular?

ERTL In the UK, I receive regular invitations from policy makers on the question of why the German dual system consistently functions so well. I always mention the research and development work conducted by BIBB. This is one of the success factors in securing continuity whilst also initiating innovation. Such discussions always bring it home to me just how well regarded this model is internationally, especially when the aim is to instigate educational reforms.

BWP The fact that the dual system is held in such esteem abroad is positive. However, we are forced to acknowledge that it does not have the appeal it once had. Does the dual system need a fresh impetus?

ERTL It’s true to say that the view from abroad is perhaps not sufficiently nuanced. As for the question of whether VET in Germany requires a new impetus, pioneering work is already going on in this regard, firstly with regard to how to deal with the impacts of the digitalisation of work processes. The second point is the transition from vocational to higher education. This is an area in which new pathways need to be pursued. I think it is important to emphasise the complementarity of the sub-system rather than establish unhelpful competitive relationships.

BWP What does that mean in specific terms?

ERTL Studies on the new Bachelor qualifications show that many of these programmes do not actually lead to successful transitions to the labour market. Many Bachelor graduates, particularly those who have studied at a university, do not even attempt to find employment. They remain at their institute of higher education to begin a Master’s degree. This is a field in which higher education still has a number of lessons to learn. The concept of vocationalism that applies within VET offers good guidance in this regard. In general terms, the segmentation of the two areas makes networking difficult. It is, however, conceivable that we could also think about young people’s competences in a cross-cutting way without mixing up the different profiles.

BWP The position of Head of Research at BIBB is linked with a professorship at the University of Paderborn. Have you thought of any ideas for this cooperation?

ERTL Cooperation with Paderborn is already up and running. I am pleased that the objective is to organise this collaboration in a way which is advantageous for both sides and to work at a faculty and university level as well as with the Department of Business Education. Two areas which I would pick out as points of joint interest are design-oriented research and state-of-the art training for young academic research talent. I can also imagine that cooperation will take place in various formats and within innovative fields, including beyond mainstream research.

BWP What could that entail?

ERTL We could, for example, think about setting up innovation workshops in which doctoral and Masters students work in conjunction with BIBB researchers to develop new ideas. It would also be important to me to establish closer points of contact with the international debate regarding the methodological and theoretical alignment of Research.


BWP You are a member of the SKOPE Network. What kind of work does this network do?

ERTL SKOPE existed for 15 years and is one of the few networks in the UK to have received state research funding over three five-year phases. This does not happen very often. The main focus is the question of which competences need to be developed within the educational and training systems in order to remain economically competitive. One example of a major issue, which was addressed in various projects, was competence assessment and development in different organisational forms. In addition, the networking concept which SKOPE embraces should also be emphasised. There is a group of between 120 and 130 associates, who work in relevant thematic areas and meet in order to exchange ideas. I attach considerable importance to the idea of managing a network strategically.

BWP Will you remain part of this network, even though you will no longer be working in Oxford?

ERTL Yes, that’s my intention! Oxford has a very strong social science faculty which always occupies one of the top positions in international rankings. Its research methodology expertise is world leading.

BWP Your move is now almost upon you. This will certainly be a major step for you and your family. What are you leaving behind in Oxford?

ERTL In Oxford, I had the opportunity to teach a group of Masters students every year. I really enjoyed working with small groups of students which included international participants, in which I had the chance to get to know the people really well and to help shape their research biographies. I will miss that. I will also miss networking with my colleagues at the university and the friendships I will leave behind. Our two children are bound to miss the friends they made at school and their football club. Both of them are keen footballers.

BWP Then Bonner SC can look forward to receiving two new members! And what will you be bringing in your luggage for BIBB?

ERTL My luggage will contain some good English tea and close contacts in Oxford. Apart from this, I will be looking to continue cooperation with China. This is a country with the largest VET system in the world. The focus needs to be on continuing to nurture and expand our cooperation.

BWP Let me close by wishing you and your family a safe arrival in Bonn, and thank you for taking the time for this interview.

(Interviewer: Christiane Jäger)

Translation from the German original (published in BWP 5/2017): Martin Kelsey, GlobalSprachTeam, Berlin